Green’s Zephry 20”

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NM
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Green’s Zephry 20”

Hi, just picked this up and was wondering if anyone could let me know which villiers engine this is. Any info on manuals available for this also appreciated. I don’t think the exhaust is correct but seems suspiciously similar to the Marquis.

 Thanks Nick

 .

wristpin
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Is that not an ID plate

Is that not an ID plate between the dealer sticker and the rewind pulley, or is it a bank space?

I'm thinking  a Mk10 or 12.

NM
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Hi Wristpin, thanks for the

Hi Wristpin, thanks for the reply.

Here is a pic of ID plate but it isn’t clear to me what this denotes. I thought the mark sc 12 07 04 might be the date but not able to interpret. 

wristpin
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I believe that the SC 12 is a

I believe that the SC 12 is a "modernised" Mk 12 . Something that I read on another forum suggested that it might have electronic ignition.

If you want "chapter and verse" on it ask Paul Child at Meetens.co.uk  - he will know.

NM
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Thanks for that Wristpin.

Thanks for that Wristpin.

It is indeed an updated MK12 but hasn’t got electronic ignition. There should be an E suffix on number for electronic ignition. Not sure what else has been updated.

Did the MK12 have the valve seats cut straight into the block.

There wasn’t a starter so does anyone know which recoil I need, or does it depend on pulley, which I’m thinking could be replaced too.

wristpin
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I have four different user

I have four different user handbooks / parts lists for Mk12 through Mk12/2 and none show a recoil unit, just a rope wrap pulley. If they ever had a recoil, maybe it was part of the upgrade?

Interesting about the E suffix ; Villiers seem to be somewhat inconsistent in their coding as to the best of my knowledge that last of the line F12s and F15s with electronic ignition did not have an E - helpful!!

As for valve seats, too long since I worked on one but I suspect cut into the block. 

NM
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Thanks Wrisrpin.

Thanks Wrisrpin.

The C12 manual Paul at Meetens sent doesn’t show a recoil in the explode diagram either, just a pulley and a hinged cover on cowling. However, page 18 does show one and on a brochure for zephyr I found on the net it says it does have one. The cowling shows it did at one stage.

      

       

wristpin
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The plot thickens!

The plot thickens!

The C12 manual that I have does show a recoil unit, the Siba more usually seen on Slopers. That would correspond with the four hole fixing pattern on your blower housing but not with the design of starter cup in your images which has internal protrusions for a different pattern of starter.  New Sibas are available and plenty of used ones appear on auction sites. New cups  for the Sibas are still around but be aware that there are two different depths. 

I have another suggestion but I need to have a sort through a couple of crates of assorted Villiers parts before committing to print !

hillsider
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I can confirm that a Siba

I can confirm that a Siba starter and the alloy cup from a Sloper will fit this engine, several years ago I converted a Greens Zephyr with this engine to recoil start for a Cricket Club as I was rather nervous of them using a piece of knotted rope to start the engine. 

 

NM
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Hi Wristpin and Hillsider.

Hi Wristpin and Hillsider. Thanks for the info. I’ve put the cowling from a Sloper against the cowling from the C12 and the holes marry up. I’ve seen villiers recoils with three and four fixing points so can use a siba starter if all else fails. When engine is back together I’ll measure from flywheel to mating face of cowling to determine which cup is required.

I must admit that just wrapping a rope around the pulley doesn’t appeal, rope staying in pulley when started and flailing around would probably happen.

wristpin
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This is the starter that I

This is the starter that I had in mind, more usually seen on Villiers Lightweights. Four hole fixing on a 4 &1/4" grid with extending pawls to engage your cup.

While the rope wrap pulley system may look a crude, I've never experienced a problem. As a ten or twelve year old I used to start my Dad's Shay Rotoscythe and in later years the donkey engines on Caterpillar D2 and D4 dozers, without event!  

hillsider
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That is the same as the

That is the same as the recoil unit that I used on the conversion that I put in place.

Re using the knotted rope starting system you quite rightly say it has been used for years with few problems if used properly.

But there lies the problem, you were brought up from a young age to use the method properly and that will have carried you forward through your Caterpillar days. Now transpose the piece of rope into the hands of a Cricket Club member whose day job is not machinery related and despite having been shown how to do it still makes a fist of it and you will see why the conversion was made. It also neatly sidestepped the issue of covering the exposed starter pulley.

 

wristpin
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To avoid confusion, the dark

To avoid confusion, the dark green starter illustrated in my last post is not the Siba starter shown in the C12 manual. The Siba shares the same fixing footprint - four holes on a 4.1/4" grid but requires a different cup from that shown in the OP's image. The green one in my images has the correct pawl configuration to match the OP's cup,  and assuming no conflict depth-wise, would be a direct conversion as detailed by Hillsider. It does seem strange that there is no mention in the C12 manual of that starter unit being suitable. 

   

  

 

 

 

 

hillsider
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Oops now I am misleading folk

Oops now I am misleading folk re starter units! but then we scrapped that mower about six years ago so the old memory can be excused the odd hiccup.

It was indeed the unpainted recoil unit that was used along with the alloy cup shown and it was very successful provided that the alloy cup was not allowed to become excessively worn by the action of the pawls chewing away the inside diameter.

 

NM
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Thanks for the replies

Thanks for the replies Wristpin and Hillsider. I can now keep a lookout for a starter recoil but I’ve got a fair bit to do before it’s needed. 

Hillsider was there any particular reason why you scrapped the mower. Were there any known points to pay attention to.

I’ll give the rope around the pulley a go when engines rebuilt to see how it runs.

Thanks Nick

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The main reason for scrapping

The main reason for scrapping the old Zephyr was down to excessive wear to the rear roller ratchets and the roller bearings. The wear was sufficient that only one half of the land roll was being driven at any one time making life interesting trying to keep the mower straight also the mower simply would not sit straight on the ground causing an uneven cut. 

If you try lifting your mower at the handlebars you will be able see if there is any slack in the roller bearings as the roller will drop away as you lift the mower. An alternative way to check is to place the mower on blocks with the roller clear of the floor / bench then use a pry bar to lift the rollers and check for play in the bearings.

There were couple of problems that we solved during its time at the Cricket Club, the first was the cone clutch operating lever thrust bearing fell apart. A local bearing supplier was able to match the broken parts to a complete thrust bearing and all was well.

Another problem arose when that cone clutch suddenly decided that it would not release fully and was dragging badly. The reason for this was found to be that plate that the engine was bolted down to had cracks radiating from the bolt holes allowing the engine to move a little as it was running and the misalignment caused the clutch to drag. The cracks were repaired and a couple of support bars were welded to the underside of the plate after this the clutch worked perfectly.

The engine itself gave very few problems aside from yearly maintenance and was in fact sold to a collector as a running engine when the machine was scrapped.

NM
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Thankyou Hillsider for a

Thankyou Hillsider for a pretty in depth reply to my question. Sounds like fun going round in circles when trying to go in a straight line. Would you say they aren’t as reliable or well built as a Marquis. I’ll check everything when I can get at the deck.

Thanks Nick

hillsider
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I think as far as reliability

I think as far as reliability goes the Greens Zephyr could hold its own with a Marquis but If user friendliness is taken into consideration I think the Marquis wins.

What thoughts do other members have from their experiences?

wristpin
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The only Zephyr that came my

The only Zephyr that came my way was probably similarly worn out and a bit of liability, particularly as it was a long way from base so we weren't too sad when it was finally retired for good. If anyone wants it, I think that I still have a new height adjuster hand wheel that never got fitted.  

NM
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Thankyou both, I think,

Thankyou both, I think, sounds a bit ominous, but time will tell.

wristpin
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Thank you both, I think,

Thank you both, I think, sounds a bit ominous, but time will tell.

May be not as it was very old and in the hands of an uncaring cricket club !  To illustrate the "uncaring" - a 40 mile round trip just to tell them that the reason their more modern mower wouldn't start was because the low oil protection device had activated.

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Quite comment that, nobody

Quite comment that, nobody ever thinks to check the oil ;-)

I once went all the way to Siloth-on-Solway GC from Kirkham to turn a switch on, maddening really, because I had asked them if the switch was on before I went.