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Collection, Preservation and Display of Old Lawn Mowers

Tecumseh modification

Hello all.

I have a dilema which I'm not really sure how to overcome.

if you've been following my lengthy journey with a bitsa mower which has a very old Tecumseh engine you'll know i've had quite a time trying to get it running.

The most recent situation is I've had to buy a new starter pull as the old one gave up the ghost after, I suspect, being used far too much as the engine has not been too easy to start. I now have a situation which combines a new pawl system (new small type) with a old diameter engine cup (large type) the difference being some 10mm so the spurs that come out from the pawl are not long enough to reach the inside of the cup thus not engaging so I can't turn over the engine.

I would think I have to get the cup modified by having some lugs welded to the I/D of the cup which would have to be large enough to enable a good engagement of the spurs so I can try and start the engine.

I'm at a loss as to who or where to get something like this done. I have no bits of metal which could be used as lugs nor can I weld or have any welding equipment.

Has anyone got any suggestions? or can offer any help?

Thanks

J Morris

Forums

wristpin Tue, 03/11/2015

Why not go with my previous suggestion to just get a small cup? Being the last size used for that configuration of starter there will be plenty around on scrap engines.

Johnone Wed, 04/11/2015

Hello Wristpin. I apologize as I had forgotten about your suggestion.

I must admit to not being totally sure how to find one, what do I search for to se if one is available and where do I look. do I just search for Tecumseh engine parts and see what comes up?

Just need a little guidance.

Thanks

J M

Johnone Wed, 04/11/2015

Hello Wristpin. I apologize as I had forgotten about your suggestion.

I must admit to not being totally sure how to find one, what do I search for to se if one is available and where do I look. do I just search for Tecumseh engine parts and see what comes up?

Just need a little guidance.

Thanks

J M

wristpin Thu, 05/11/2015

From previous "correspondence" it appears that tou have replaced the original recoil unit - large centre retainer with pawl or pawls engaging in a cast internally toothed cup / hub; with a newer unit - smaller centre retainer with a single pawl engaging a smaller diameter pressed steel cup / hub.

An early pattern starter will be far more difficult to find than a later cup to match your new starter so I suggest that you just go for a newer cup which was used on many models including the LAV and LAVR four strokes and Many of the two strokes right through to the MV series used on comparatively recent Flymos etc.

I believe that the part number that you need is Aspera / Tecnamotor 24220007 or its Tecumseh equivalent

As far as I know, you have never told us or posted an image of what has actually  broken on your original recoil  - it may be worth doing so as all may not be lost with it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9f2txurk8dssin/Aspera%20starters0001.pdf?dl=0

 

Johnone Thu, 05/11/2015

Hello again Wristpin.

Many thanks for the information and advice. I have to advise the old recoil just didn't er, well, recoil anymore so I've disposed of it as I had the new one already, which you mentioned in your post reply from yesterday.

So, i'm guessing if I do a search for the details you put in your post (part number etc) then I should be able to find something which will do the job?

You were correct about the cup that I currently have, quite large and has teeth all around the internal surface. The old pawl had one spur, the new one has 3 so would, I understand, offer either more points of contact or more positions to contact.

I will do a search using the details you advised of.

Thanks

J Morris

wristpin Thu, 05/11/2015

Think that you gave up too early on your old one, theres not a lot on those that's not fixable - never throw anything away that soon!!!    Can you post an image of your new one , from your description of "three spurs" I've got a sneaking suspicion that you have definitely not got one that would match the cup part number that I have given you  and possibly one that was never used on your engine so don't go rushing out and buying one until we've checked!

Johnone Mon, 09/11/2015

Hello Wristpin. Apologies for the delayed reply but this weekend has been spent doing bonfires and watching fireworks etc so have not been near a computer.

I have not been to hasty and ordered anything yet so no harm done.

please use this link to get to my g-drive with a couple of pictures of the new pawl in there,

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-LaE8eDcddAc3RmZkFWRUJPVDQ&usp…

If you would like to see an image with he spurs exposed you will have to wait until the weekend as I need to take an image in daylight and all week I'm at work until after dark.

let me know

Thanks

J Morris 

wristpin Mon, 09/11/2015

Yes, I think that we need to see a pic with these three "spurs" exposed. Also we need to tighten up on terminology so that we are sure that we are all talking about the same thing - spurs don't appear in the parts list!

Starter pulley, the bit with the rope wrapped round it. On your original this was metal , on the later ones plastic.

Cup or hub. The bit fixed to the flywheel. On your original, cast alloy  with many teeth. Later ones pressed steel with fewer pressed out protrusions...

Retainer. The shiny bit in the centre with a slot or slots for the paws to protrude from when the rope is pulled.

Pawl(s). The flat blade or blades that pivot in the pulley under the retainer and protrude out from it to engage the protrusions in the cup when the rope is pulled.

The image with the two starters side by side appears to show your old starter, metal pulley and larger diameter retainer on the left ( the one that you say you have disposed of ?) and a new  later one with the smaller diameter retainer, on the right . I would expect the new one to have one pawl and it will need the smaller diameter cup that I suggested a couple of posts back.

 

Johnone Tue, 10/11/2015

Hello Wristpin. You are correct in the respect of your assumption regarding which pulley is which bit the new pulley has 3 pawls not one as you queried.

I will add an image of the pulley with the pawls exposed over the weekend as, because I can't take a picture in the dark, very well and the mower is away from the house, I would have trouble getting a good image until then.

I let you know when its up.

Regards

J Morris

 

wristpin Tue, 10/11/2015

Well, with three pawls I have no idea what you have! So the chances are that the cup part number that I gave you may be incorrect. To the best of my knowledge I've never seen a thee pawl starter  on an Aspera / Tecnamotor / Tecumseh starter of that size so I really don't know what you have.

We await an image with interest  - can you not bring just the recoil unit in doors to photograph it ?

Johnone Sun, 15/11/2015

Hello Wristpin.

You can find the images here-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-LaE8eDcddAZWZncE9WcW4tR2s

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-LaE8eDcddAcFV4b3NqeUc2aGM&usp…

The item I have was purchased from a Tecumseh catalog and it said suitable to LAV among others. There is a company in the Hull area that does this (but I downloaded the Tecumseh catalog from a Tecumseh source).

it is black, as Tecumseh parts should be and it fits to the current blower housing using the same screws that were with the machine before so it should be correct. I think it's only the diameter of the cup it is supposed to be used with tta could be different??

J Morris

wristpin Sun, 15/11/2015

Interesting,  but a Tecumseh starter can be any colour that the OEM orders. The brown one in my pics is a genuine Tecumseh one and I've seen them in white and red so there's no " black as it should be" !

I've never seen a three pawl Tecumseh starter and as Tecumseh ceased manufacturing  engines and supplying genuine parts around five or more years ago and stopped using that pattern ( with a single pawl)  several years before that  I suspect that yours is an after market or pattern part. That said, it is probably compatible with the last generation of starters and cups. Your problem is that you had a very early starter and cup and you are very unlikely to find a starter to match that original toothed cup.

The best solution to your problem is to get a small cup ( the part number that I gave you a couple of posts back) as illustrated in the images that I last posted. It should be relatively easy to pick up a used one together with a debris screen. 

That said you should bear in mind that the usual reason for a catastrophic starter failure is that it has been subjected to unacceptable overloading or abuse while trying  to start an engine that has a fundamental issue of its own; so it's time to get that engine sorted !

On edit

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Kirby-Tecumseh-Vk30-SM1A-Engine-Parts…

Just seen this , virtually certain that this is the same as your old starter  and will fit your existing toothed  cup. Get the seller to measure the diameter of the pawl retainer . If it's bigger than the one you've just bought it's probably correct.

 

 

 

Gerry Norris Mon, 16/11/2015

NOT sure if this is any help but I Have an old Tecumseh engine that use to be on a Landmaster rotavator. Would that recoil starter assembly be any good IF it is still on the engine?? small engine as I recall no bigger than 2hp.

                          Regards

                                   Gerry

Gerry Norris Tue, 17/11/2015

Checked this mornng and it has got a complete starter assembly if this is any good to you?

Johnone Tue, 17/11/2015

Hello Gerry. I'm not sure that I need a whole starter assembly as I have most of it, just a cup that is smaller than the one on my machine (look at the images through the link I added to an earlier post). I would, however, appreciate some way of seing what you have as it may not be anything like the item I have in the first place. Tecumseh made many different engines for many different applications so I'd have to see more evidence and get a second opinion from the more knowledgeable people on here before accepting or purchasing anything.

If you could get something to show what you have i'd appreciate it.

Thanks for now

J Morris

Johnone Tue, 17/11/2015

Hello Wristpin.

I understand your depth of knowledge but the reason I assumed the Tecumseh engines or parts are black is that I have only ever seen Tecumseh engines (unless they had been painted over as my machine) in black. My engine is black underneath the green that was added during a service, so I have been led to believe.

Anyway. The part number you gave me some posts ago I used to catch one on EBay, I will re visit and see if it's still there (£4 cost) and purchase if available. I get the OEM comments but it's the only one, in the catalogue I have that is anything like the old one I had with regard to mounting so I took a stab and it fits, as I have stated previously. I think the old starter gave up as it was very heavily used. If you remember, right back at the outset, I did state the engine was a pig to start so it seems to have carried on in the same way ever since. The chord was starting to fray in the middle anyway so it may have snapped at some stage so I would need to replace anyway. Having said that I have, if you remember, had the engine running for various periods of time. When the old starter broke, I was trying to see if the engine would re start after letting it run, stopping it while I had tea, then trying to start again (or at least that was the plan). I want to get repeatability so I am confident to return the machine to it's proper home (a shed in a different garden) and use it to cut the grass on the area it was meant to be used on, plain and simple.

I'll see if I can get the cup and let you know how I get on.

Thanks for now

Regards

J Morris

wristpin Tue, 17/11/2015

Your engine is green because it came from an Atco. Atco may have placed a bulk order for engines finished in their " house green" or may have re- sprayed them at the installation stage. Anyway, in that application the machine would have left the factory with a green engine.

The larger retainer is just an identification . The retainer itself is just one different component in the older pattern starter , the boss of the pulley would be larger also and there was an extra return spring to ensure full retraction of the pawl; it's not possible to mix and match components from the two generations of recoil units.

hortimech Wed, 18/11/2015

Atco did use a black variant of that engine, but on a self-propelled 18 inch grass collecting rotary, it also had a side starter.

Most of your engine was made by Aspera in Italy under licence from Tecumseh, similar engines were also made in Australia by Kirby Lauson.

As for the proper colour of Tecumseh engines being black, well, I have seen more white ones than black ones. The black colour only really came in when Tecumseh bought out Fiat from Aspera engines and turned its name to Technamotor.

 

 

Gerry Norris Thu, 19/11/2015

What is the diameter of your cup?- mine looks like your one.Then I will measure mine would that help? Failing that I might be able to send a photo of cup by e-mail. Or we do the measuring bit and if you feel it could be right I will just post it to you  to try.

                                            Regards

                                                    Gerry 

                                                                      

Johnone Tue, 08/12/2015

Hello Gerry. sorry for the long delay in replying.

I thought I had the measurements of the cup as I have done a dimensional inspection on it but I can't lay my hands on the paper it was written on. because the weather has been rather bad over the last few weekends and I have only an open yard to do any work on the mower, no shed and no covered area, as such to work in, I have not managed to be able to re measure it.

I have a smaller cup which is on E-bay (bids close tomorrow). I hope to win this bidding so I may have a solution to my problem. it is the only thing which I believe I need to get this to be a usable machine again. if I need further assistance I will let you know.

Thanks for the offer, it's greatly appreciated.

Regards

J Morris